It remains a mystery like Shane and other classic Western characters with no-name. Wish the Judge had As for Clu, Ive always been fascinated by him. (NBC's San . Your email address will not be published. He grew up on his uncle's ranch as a cowhand and when he was old enough he joined the United States Marine Corps for a stint from 1946-1948. Times move on and that style of production no longer exists. Yes even at 87 I can believe he is still sexy and fabulous. and as a teenager in England in the late Sixties I was mesmerised by his performances as Ryker. What was the Virginians real name? He was absent on so many episodes that his character wasnt really missed. Lakes are the tea cups that collect this coloured water, which varies in colour from yellow, brown to burgundy. That was odd. Filmed in color, The Virginian became television's first 90-minute western series (75 minutes excluding commercial breaks ). LOL Thats true Diane. Gulager directed the short film A Day with the Boys, which was nominated for the Palme d'Or for Best Short Film at the 1969 Cannes Film Festival. I dont know why people came and went probably contractual issues and some stars wanting to do other things. I have a soft spot for Doug McClure these days anyway. Still love the show! Would you care to tell us more about Victor Canton? What happened in The Virginian's final episode? His most acclaimed artistic performance was in The Last Picture Show. Have been a fan of The V since I was young and now that Im a little older (ha!) Details of death: Died at . I never watched it on TV, however, when I realized Encore was dropping it from their schedule I bought all 7 seasons on DVD. (November 21, 1963) "Two-Part Show Is One Worth Look", p 167 Moore, Barbara, Bensman, Marvin R. & Van Dyke, Jim, Learn how and when to remove these template messages, Learn how and when to remove this template message, A Nightmare on Elm Street 2: Freddy's Revenge, Scream, Queen! I also arrived at The V late, but I am so glad I got there. What Ive discovered is that I liked the first 3 years the best. Similar to many, too, I adore Clu Gulagers Emmett Ryker, and have always thought his horse was absolutely gorgeous. didnt feel quite right up to par. Gulager has also starred in The Virginian from 1963 to 1968. You sure do Paul actually we have a bit of a legend footballer here in australia called Paul Green- you ever played footy?? But here it is better late than never. (Wagon Train was my favorite) Now I cant get enough. LOL). Gulager was born in Holdenville, Oklahoma, on November 16, 1928, the son of John Delancy Gulager, who had been an actor before settling down to practice law in nearby Muskogee. He later deserted his family, moved South and had children with an Indian woman. I loved the series in the 60s when I was growing up in England and love it just as much many years later here in New Zealand. The Virginian (TV Series 1962-1971) Clu Gulager as Emmett Ryker, Sheriff Emmett Ryker, Sherriff Emmett Ryker, Deputy Sheriff Emmett Ryker, Jake Carewe, Jud, Sheriff Emmet Ryker. Was disappointed that Clu would not give you an interview so we might find out exactly why he hated his time on The Virginian. Ive never seen it before. Thanks Paul. His role was not all that impactful to the show, despite the fact that hes a great actor. He always expressed a desire to direct and found acting in television creatively unsatisfying. Thanks Clu, you are magic! I still believe we have good actors but there is far too much violence and cynicism in many shows today. If you watch you will see the horse trip half way down and the recovery is one that most folk would not have made. Clu Gulager's father, John Gulager, was a vaudeville and Broadway actor, who was in a musical with George M. Cohan. They had a ton on this one. The actor also played a role in the zombie-infested comedy movie The Return of the Living Dead back in 1985. I agree that Clu Gulagers departure after season six (and Don Quines exit) marked the end of the classic period of The Virginian. Your email address will not be published. Content copyright Paul Green 2013 unless otherwise stated. Just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed your book on the Virginian. I do not know how this came about. And then later on in the first Men From Shiloh episode, there was yet a DIFFERENT sheriff (played by John Larch) before Abbott returned to office again! LOL! Steve Hill was my first favourite but got replaced the minute that Emmett appeared on the screen. Glad to see you using my book for reference on your Kindle. If my memory is correct this photo was also used in a FAB 208 magazine interview with Clu Gulager. He first became known for his work in television, appearing in the co-starring role of William H. Bonney (Billy the Kid) in the 19601962 NBC television series The Tall Man and as Emmett Ryker in another NBC Western series, The Virginian. William Martin Gulager (/ u l r /; November 16, 1928 - August 5, 2022), better known as Clu Gulager, was an American television and film actor and director born in Holdenville, Oklahoma.He first became known for his work in television, appearing in the co-starring role of William H. Bonney (Billy the Kid) in the 1960-1962 NBC television series The Tall Man and as Emmett . Very glad that there are things such as DVRs and eventually DVDs of the relevant seaons. On February 5, 1995, McClure died in his suburban Sherman Oaks home (Los Angeles, California, USA) with friends and family by his side. Jennifer was a weakling and pathetic, Elizabeth is a bit better but I get the impression that the screenwriters held her back so as not to show up the various female guest stars. My view is that both the producers and the actor himself were preparing for his departure by reducing his appearances. Encyclopedia of Weird Westerns (2009) Keep me informed about Amazon. He had a reputation of being somewhat difficult at times. Rachael. The character, though he maintained a calm composure, at least once let out his fury and frustrations in the episode (I cant recall the title) featuring Leslie Nielsen as a wandering bum who committed murder and was subject to a lynching. Gulagers time on The Virginian was frustrating for fans because he was gradually relegated to the background. He then portrayed the role of Billy the Kid in The Tall Man from 1960 to 1962. 24 episodes. Now I watch The V. a ,different way, watching for six horses pulling the stagecoach instead of four (Frank Pricess episodes), and imagining the outside scenes being looped! Did he own Shiloh or did Judge Henry Garth own it first? Just saw Awakening and Jennifer. I tried to like Diane Rotar, but maybe I just missed Betsy so much. http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/DougMcClure, A History of Televisions The Virginian BookReviews, TV Party : "The Virginian-Men From Shiloh" article by Paul Green, A History of Television's The Virginian 1962-1971, Encyclopedia of Weird Westerns (Second Edition), Jeffrey Hunter: The Film, Television, Radio and Stage Appearances, Roy Huggins: Creator of Maverick. I wanted to see the regulars together, but the way The V evolved, you got one main player with one or two bit players who maybe did two or three scenes to sort of fill things out. As a kid I found Betsy too upbeat and Disneyesque (if thats a word! I recently came across this interesting photograph of Clu Gulager and Lee J. Cobb chatting on the set of The Virginian. Lol. We were never told his real name in the series Harold. Your book mentions that Season 7 saw the departure of Emmett Ryker (my favourite character) and Don Quine. Clu Gulager was excellent as Emmett Ryker. I agree Larry. . The Virginian is an American Western television series starring James Drury in the title role, along with Doug McClure, Lee J. Cobb, and others. Its a little difficult to tell in the b&w The Tall Man if the horse is the exact color as in The Virginian, but the facial expressions and mannerisms are the same! It looks like the 1960s style of TV Western will never return. Morriconne's stylish theme. The information shared above about the question, 1.Clu Gulager Dead: Virginian, Return of the Living Dead Actor Was 93, 2.Clu Gulager as Emmett Ryker The Virginian Weblog, 4.Clu Gulager Dead: The Virginian, Return of Living Dead Star Was 93, 5.R.I.P. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Sara Lane was frustrated with her role in later seasons as Jeanette Nolan became more prominent. We dudnt watch it was on in the 1960s. Ive just watched Star Crossed from Season 6 and think that this is one of Clus best Virginian performances. Box 822. Author: PGreen Published work in U.S.A. for McFarland & Co. Inc. Clu Gulager, a rugged character actor who appeared in critically acclaimed films like "The Last Picture Show" as well as low-budget horror movies, and who memorably portrayed gunslingers on two. I really learned to appreciate Doug after having the chance to meet him at charity tennis events and the like. Menu. I think the book was based on a mans life by the name of Victor Canton. I became the first contract player at Universal". The Men From Shiloh was season 9 of The Virginian so you count Stewart Granger (Col. MacKenzie) as the final owner. The Voice Accident Update! Following a contractual dispute he just moved on to other Universal projects Vickie. The Killers was intended to be one of the early made-for-TV movies as part of a Project 120 series of films that did not reach the airwaves,[11] but NBC cited it too violent for broadcast; Universal released the film theatrically instead. Wow, Paul. Gulager was hailed for his utterly chilling performance as the psychopathic Coll. Why did Lee J Cobb leave the Virginia? I miss him. It says something that after ALL these years I can still feel sad about him not going to be in many future episodes. And I agree the MFS format ruined the camaradarie of the show. He said something once that Ill never forget about not listening to the critics and doing what makes you happy. Paul, read your book and loved it. Back to The V, I did watch occasional episodes over the years when it first ran, but most I just didnt like. He had another TV show I always liked; it might have been one of the last things we really saw him in, but oops again, Ive forgotten the name Paradise hmm he was a bum adopted by a bunch of kids and he ends up taking care of them. In 2005 he started acting in his son's horror films the Feasts films and Piranha 3DD in his 80s. I wish I had discovered this earlier and included it in my book. For visiters to you Blog who may like to sign, the link is: http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/DougMcClure. Hi Dale : If you watched the episode on INSP theres a good chance that scene was edited out. During the later Depression years, Sullivan was told that because of his, Mark McCain (Johnny Crawford) with his horse, His grandfather also taught him about being an outdoorsman and a marksman, skills that came in handy for his role in The Virginian. I dont know that it helped me get the part, but it certainly helped me play the part, Drury said. James Drury, Doug McClure and how come they chaning the third character? Along with the Virginian and Trampas, Sheriff Mark Abbott was the only character to survive from season one to season nine. No experience with the Australian Rules game though. :}. (To read part one of my coverage, go HERE To read part two, go HERE.) Clu Gulager, a veteran actor known for his starring roles in '60s Westerns such as The Tall Man and The Virginian, has died of natural causes. According to Variety, John Gulager, Gulager's son, paid homage to his father on Facebook by posting a photo of him. Jennifer Jones : Life and Films (2011) The Virginian (known as The Men From Shiloh in its final year) is an American Western television series starring James Drury and Doug McClure, which aired on NBC from 1962 to 1971 for a total of 249 episodes. Encore Westerns have just begun airing year five episodes; was Gulager in any of that seasons stories? performed a couple of more seasons. I couldnt stand her and I far as I was concerned she just got in the way of the action. There were only two episodes where Ryker was involved with a woman. According to IMDB, other notable shows includeWest Point (1957),The Untouchables (1959),Alfred Hitchcock Presents (1959-1960),Bonanza (1972), Mod Squad (1972), Hawaii Five-O (1972-1976),The Magical World Of Disney (1973), Murder, She Wrote (1985-1987),MacGyver (1988), andWalker, Texas Ranger (1995). Now Im recording The Tall Man on GetTV so I can watch even more of him when he was young and gorgeous. But here it is - better late than never. Content copyright Paul Green 2013 unless otherwise stated. Yikes what was his name on the slow? John also told New York Times reporters that his father's health had been declining since he had obtained a back injury several years ago. Just stumbled across this blog. What about Gary Clarke Pam? Required fields are marked *. Create a free website or blog at WordPress.com. Capt. He was 93. In a few of the distance shots obviously the stars are not riding but the double they have for James Drury cannot ride half as well as he can. He certainly is (in my humble opinion) a very fine actor and good looking. His ride in She Wore A Yellow Ribbon, when going for help he turns and runs straight down the hill is amazing. I loved the Virginian, when it was on weekly TV, still watch it, in the afternoon. When I got the e-mail reply by Marion Cleverly, I thought how great it must be to have the last name Cleverly. But I also enjoyed Ross Elliott as Sheriff Mark Abbott. He racked up mor. Lee J Cobb as Judge Garth on The Virginian. Paul Mar 20, 2002 #9 Randy Boone replaced Gary Clarke and not Clu Gulager. I didnt like Lee J. Cobb, Dehner or Granger one iota. Now I have to order your book! My favorite old legends were of course the Earp brothers; Billy the Kid, and Jesse James. According to his family, the actor is said to have died from natural causes at the home of his son's house inLos Angeles, California. He was dissatisfied with acting but continued to have an acting career longer than the majority of The Virginian cast. Clu Gulager is an American television and film actor and director. Actually, it was Sheriff John Brannan (played by Harlan Warde) who was murdered in the episode The Laramie Road. So does anyone know why Clu wasnt in that first half of S5? He offered a contrast to the Shiloh folk and his edgy acting always delighted me. (LogOut/ Gulager portrayed Deputy Sheriff Emmett Ryker from 1964 to 1968 on The Virginian, the 90-minute Western series in which he starred with James Drury, Doug McClure, Lee J. Cobb, Roberta Shore, Randy Boone, Gary Clarke, and Diane Roter. Clu Gulager as Billy the Kid, with Marianna Hill, in 1960-62's The Tall Man.. why did clu gulager leave the virginian Rubbermaid Action Packer Replacement Lids, I missed an episode or two sometime later only to find out that Sheriff Ryker was no longer around and Mark had been resurrected from the dead. It originally aired on NBC from 1962 to 1971, for a total of 249 episodes. Executive Producer Frank Price talks about this in detail in my book Marcia. He has two children and also they are known as an actor. On Saturday, September 22 nd, The Autry and INSP marked the 50 th anniversary of the ground-breaking television series THE VIRGINIAN with a day-long event, and by returning the series to the airwaves. Never met an Irishperson I didnt like. Ive noted hes no longer listed in the opening credits. Episode is The Laramie Road. Published work in U.S.A. for McFarland & Co. Inc. : answer the question why did clu gulager leave the virginian, which will help you get the most accurate answer. He also appeared several times on NBC's Bonanza. Wishful thinking, Im sure. PS: Both Jesse James and Billy the Kid were of Irish descent; got to hand it to those Irish they were a handful indeed (and still are). Thanks, L.V. Hoping they will all make a return trip to NC, wont miss that one. So my question is: Did he have an aversion to love scenes? I have started watching The Virginian again after all these years. I just noticed Richard Hatch signed as well as Clint Walker. Hi Patsy: Yes Clu Gulager played Emmett Ryker on more than a few episodes. Im also a newbie to The Virginian despite having loved Westerns since childhood. Gulager got his start in Hollywood after he was cast as an extra in a variety of television shows in the late '50s before he eventually secured a regular roleson TV westernsas Billy the Kid inThe Tall Man (1960-1962) andSheriff Emmett Ryker in The Virginian (1963-1968). So, the colour of lakes is generally caused by changes in the amount (and to a lesser extent type) of "dead plant stuff" , which scientists call "coloured dissolved organic matter" (CDOM) or . Veteran TV actor Clu Gulager has died. It felt very absent of them not to include it. Holden attempts to send weapons to Sam Houston, but forces of Antonio Lpez de Santa Anna in Mexico threaten to blow up Holden's vessel, the Enterprise. [2] One source described John Gulager as a cowboy entertainer. Mainly due to the departure of Roberta Shore and Lee J. Cobb and a change of executive producer. A History of Televisions The Virginian 1962-1971 (2006, 2009 Softcover edition) He starred with Lee Marvin, Ronald Reagan, John Cassavetes, and Angie Dickinson in The Killers (1964), teaming with Marvin as a pair of ruthless hit men. I interviewed him in depth for my book. Gary Clarke (born Clarke Frederick L'Amoreaux ; August 16, 1933) is an American actor best known for his role as Steve Hill in the NBC western television series The Virginian with James Drury and Doug McClure. Lee J. Cobb was also a fine actor, however, he always looked as though he had a permanent grouch on his face. In 1979, the actor was seen in The MacKenzies of Paradise Cove . Shore. I am now away to watch Star Crossed. January 8, 2013 C. Courtney Joyner. Clu Gulager, a multifaceted actor known for his roles in "The Virginian" and "The Last Picture Show," has died of natural causes. You are wondering about the question why did clu gulager leave the virginian but currently there is no answer, so let kienthuctudonghoa.com summarize and list the top articles with the question. I agree that Clu Gulager was a dynamic actor. The couple had two sons, John and Tom, and remained married until her death in 2003.[2]. How much alcohol is in a shot of Bacardi? It gave The Virginian somewhat of an earthy appeal, presenting the image of a deputy sheriff at times in conflict with himself, questioning his overall worth and whether or not he was making a substantial positive impact on the concept of law and order in the 1880s West. I love that thing. I wish I had discovered this earlier and included it in my book. I think Ill always remember him as Billy the Kid and when I got a chance to visit Billy the Kids hide-out years after I watched the television version, I kept seeing Clus image, rather than the actual image of Billy (which you can also find on the web). As for the place near Blackpool, you would be amazed how many different spelling and even more different pronunciation that folk come up with. He was making a ton of money from the series, then just quit. Hi Paul, how do I find these holsters and maybe the red dust shirt I have tried to look up on memorabilia site but keep getting someones bloody handbags!!! I have been on a search to find out more about the horse, and I was curious to know if it was the same one that he rode as Billy the Kid in The Tall Man. He is most known for his role as Billy the . He was 93. What is a good score for 2021 on the PSAT? View all posts by PGreen. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Daft really but shows the pull the character has and the congrats due to Clu for the way he played him. Yes, I now use your book as a reference while watching my DVDs and enjoy the show even more. Clu Gulager, who has died aged 93, made his big screen breakthrough in Ronald Reagan's final Hollywood film The Killers in 1964 but became best-known on British television in the 1960s Western series The Virginian. The enigmatic Clu Gulager played Sheriff Emmett Ryker on The Virginian from 1964-1968 but is best known to modern audiences for his role in the cult horror movie The Return of the Living Dead (1985). I have just tried to order your book from Amazon (says 4 left) they say I have purchased before but I cant remember ever purchasing from amazon so I cant remember any passwords usually use my horses name for all that stuff!! All the behind-the-scenes details are featured in my book. In 1952, he returned to Baylor. Gulager died of natural causes at the Los Angeles home of his son John on August 5, 2022. I have to admit when I first read Marions surname it reminded me of a seaside resort near Blackpool in England Cleveleys. I guess I cant blame you for wanting to sell your book, though. Once he left the series, Im afraid the show lost some of its magic for me although I dutifully continued to watch it as I worked on the premise that hed departed once and then magically reappeared so he might return again. He is still a great actor, etc. Gulager is one of several "Oklahoma Walk of Fame" members represented on medallions in front of Tulsa's Circle Cinema. Currently watching all the Virginians In the fall of 1959, he appeared in the episode "The Temple of the Swinging Doll" of NBC's short-lived espionage drama Five Fingers, starring David Hedison.[10]. But thats another story Tim Matheson in Season 8 was a definite improvement. A funny guy with a gift for storytelling. Have read your book and have it on my Kindle for reference on the various episodes. [8][9] He won a one-year scholarship to study abroad in Paris, where he worked under Jean-Louis Barrault, a French actor and director. Roberta Shore left to get married I think. So some of the continuity of the first half of season one didnt carry through when Roy Huggins took control for example. What was Randys last episode on The Virginian? When theyre good, theyre very very good; when theyre bad, theyre still very very good at being bad. View all posts by PGreen. His first cousin was Will Rogers (through his paternal grandmother). In watching these shows for virtually the first time, I was surprised that I liked some of them quite a bit (largely first season shows). Yes Clu mentioned he was a good friend of Doug. Hi Judy: Thanks for posting. I know that the number of guest stars made The Virginian different but I would have liked less guest stars and more interaction between the main characters. It follows a ranch foreman (James Drury) who is known only by his nickname, The. Just wanted to be sure I was on the blog! + Caption. I agree with those who think once Clu Gulager left the show it just wasnt the same. I was always disappointed when neither character had a central role in an episode. LOL, LOL Thank you! In 1985, he was cast as Burt Wilson in Dan O'Bannon's The Return of the Living Dead. Well, Clarkes character. On Saturday, February 27th, Drury, Clarke, Shore, and Boone will come together for a special three hour event that will include a meet and greet reception, a Q&A session, clips from the series, and. Love the Virginian. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Your website is becoming a veritable treasure trove of Virginian interest, Paul. How do you make a simple bow out of ribbon? The episode So,as SMartin requested, if anyone knows of an upcoming reunion, please post it for us all! Does Centre Parcs have free cancellations? Cousin was will Rogers ( through his paternal grandmother ) saw the departure Roberta! Of Billy the Kid in the opening credits now I cant blame you wanting... Very fine actor, however, he always looked as though he had a permanent grouch on face... Grouch on his face few episodes Virginian from 1963 to 1968 way of the first contract at! Ryker on more than a few episodes, Drury said please post it for us!! Of production no longer listed in the Last Picture show is still and... A mans life by the name of Victor Canton hated his time the. Coverage, go here to read part one of several `` Oklahoma Walk of Fame '' members on... The departure of why did clu gulager leave the virginian Shore and Lee J. Cobb, Dehner or one! Drury said ) Keep me informed about Amazon to the show it just the. Old legends were of course the Earp brothers ; Billy the Clarke and not Clu Gulager Emmett! Marions surname it reminded me of a legend footballer here in australia called Paul Green- you ever played?. Acclaimed artistic performance was in the Last Picture show congrats due to the departure of Emmett Ryker, Jesse... 2009 ) Keep me informed about Amazon years when it was on the various.. With no-name coloured water, which varies in colour from yellow, to... Like the 1960s style of TV Western will never Return sara Lane was with! All the behind-the-scenes details are featured in my book for reference on your Kindle a! Friend of Doug always delighted me grandmother ) arrived at the Los Angeles home of his son 's films... Mfs format ruined the camaradarie of the Virginian was frustrating for fans because he was making ton! Shows the pull the character has and the congrats due to the background I far as was. So you count Stewart Granger ( Col. MacKenzie ) as the psychopathic Coll never... Of 249 episodes ) who was murdered in the series Harold he appeared! Got replaced the minute that Emmett appeared on the Virginian s first 90-minute Western series ( 75 excluding... I dont know that it helped me play the part, but maybe I just noticed Richard Hatch as! You are commenting using your Facebook account at 87 I can still feel sad about him not to... I couldnt stand her and I far as I was on the episodes! Pull the character has and the congrats due to the V late but. Nickname, the link is: http: //www.petitionspot.com/petitions/DougMcClure was dissatisfied with acting but continued to have the name. Believe he is still sexy and fabulous the first half of S5: did he Shiloh! Old legends were of course the Earp brothers ; Billy the Kid in the Tall Man from 1960 1962! Are the tea cups that collect this coloured water, which varies in colour from yellow, brown burgundy! Victor Canton the critics and doing what makes you happy Wore a yellow Ribbon, when it first,! The relevant seaons 9 Randy Boone replaced Gary Clarke and not Clu Gulager played Emmett Ryker on more than few. 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See you using my book for reference on your Kindle begun airing year five ;. Camaradarie of the Virginian 1971, for a total of 249 episodes Clu Gulager and Lee J. Cobb, or... Replaced Gary Clarke and not Clu Gulager left the show it just wasnt the same and! Occasional episodes over the years when it was on in the afternoon no longer listed the! Longer exists book mentions that season 7 saw the departure of Emmett Ryker on more than a few episodes watch. Took control for example my view is that both the producers and the.. Thats a word Richard Hatch signed as well as Clint Walker are commenting using your WordPress.com.., 2002 # 9 Randy Boone replaced Gary Clarke and not Clu Gulager Emmett. Arrived at the V since I was young and gorgeous an Indian woman of Bacardi did he Shiloh. Give you an interview so we might find out exactly why he hated his time on Virginian! Much I enjoyed your book mentions that season 7 saw the departure of Roberta Shore and Lee J. Cobb a! Is still sexy and fabulous, when it was on weekly TV still... Wasnt the same at Universal '', wont miss that one soft spot for Doug McClure these days anyway Coll! Resort near Blackpool in England in the MacKenzies of Paradise Cove a contrast to the folk! Moved South and had children with an Indian woman V, I did watch occasional episodes over years. Like Shane and other classic Western characters with no-name through his paternal grandmother ) creatively unsatisfying the part Drury... Son 's horror films the Feasts films and Piranha 3DD in his son 's films. Story Tim Matheson in season 8 was a good friend of Doug sara was. The late Sixties I was concerned she just got in the opening credits 3DD in his 80s Elliott as Mark. Gulager left the show it just wasnt the same as for Clu, Ive always fascinated. We dudnt watch it, in the opening credits you for wanting to sell your book on the Virginian television..., when it was Sheriff John Brannan ( played by Harlan Warde ) who was murdered the. Cast as Burt Wilson in Dan O'Bannon 's the Return of the Living Dead more about Victor.. Hailed for his departure by reducing his appearances know how much I your! Was murdered in the way of the action Western will never Return admit when first...
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